Episode 333
E 333: The Hidden Cost of Staying Quiet: Guest Barbara McAfee
What happens when it isn't safe to speak?
For many adult children of dysfunction, silence became a survival strategy long before they ever realized it. Whether it was fear, criticism, neglect, abuse, or simply growing up in a home where emotions weren't welcome, many learned to suppress their voice in order to stay safe.
In this powerful conversation, Tammy sits down with voice coach, author, speaker, and performer Barbara McAfee to explore the profound connection between our voice, our nervous system, our self-expression, and our healing journey.
Barbara shares her own story of growing up as the family secret keeper, how years of unspoken truth manifested physically in her body, and why reclaiming her voice became one of the most transformational experiences of her life.
Together, Tammy and Barbara explore:
• Why so many adult children struggle to speak up
• The connection between trauma and the voice
• How suppressed emotions can show up physically
• The surprising ways your voice reveals your emotional state
• Why singing can be deeply healing for the nervous system
• The five voice elements and what they reveal about you
• How to reconnect with parts of yourself that have been silenced
• Practical ways to begin reclaiming your voice today
Perhaps most importantly, Barbara reminds us that the voice never truly disappears. It waits patiently for us to feel safe enough to come home to ourselves.
If you've ever felt unseen, unheard, dismissed, or afraid to speak your truth, this episode is for you.
ABOUT BARBARA MCAFEE:
Barbara McAfee is a voice coach, singer, author, speaker, and creator of the Full Voice framework. For more than 30 years she has helped leaders, professionals, and individuals discover greater vitality, presence, authenticity, and impact through the power of the human voice.
CONNECT WITH BARBARA:
Website:
https://www.barbaramcafee.com/
YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/mcafeemusic
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/barbara.mcafee
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/barbaramcafeesings/
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbaramcafee/
TEDx Talks:
Bringing Your Full Voice to Life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze763kgrWGg
How Oral Tradition Singing Helps Us Work & Live Better Together:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrRQulQnaoQ
BOOKS:
Full Voice: The Art and Practice of Vocal Presence
Full Voice for Leaders: Cultivating Vitality, Presence, and Impact in a Changing World
COMING SOON:
Vocal Intelligence: Leading with Vitality, Presence, and Impact
MUSIC:
https://barbaramcafee.bandcamp.com/
KEY TAKEAWAY:
The voice is more than sound. It is an expression of who we are, what we've survived, and what parts of ourselves are still waiting to be reclaimed
If this conversation resonated with you and you've spent years feeling disconnected from your authentic self, your emotions, or your inner voice, I'd love to help.
Book a complimentary Calm & Clarity Call and let's explore the patterns that may still be shaping your life today.
Transcript
Well, welcome everybody back to another edition of Adult Child of Dysfunction.
Speaker A:I am super excited to have Barbara McAfee with us today.
Speaker A:She is a voice coach, an author, a speaker, and a performer with over 30 years of experience helping people unlock their full voice, blending practical vocal techniques with powerful tools for authentic, flexible, and unforgettable, forgettable self expression.
Speaker A:Welcome, Barbara.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:It's a joy to be here.
Speaker B:Tammy.
Speaker A:Yeah, I actually love this conversation because I think we.
Speaker A:I actually do an inner voice scan with people that analyzes like 171,000 different frequencies of your voice.
Speaker A:And it's super fun.
Speaker A:And people go, well, it's just your voice.
Speaker A:And I'm like, oh, no.
Speaker A:Your voice is literally a culmination of every single vibration of every trillion millions of cells in your body.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's everything.
Speaker A:Your voice is absolutely everything.
Speaker A:But tell me how you got into voice work.
Speaker B:Oh, well, like most healers, including yourself, I found my own voice through not having it.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In some ways.
Speaker B:In some ways I did.
Speaker B:And in really crucial ways, I didn't.
Speaker B:I was the secret keeper for my family, as a lot of us are.
Speaker B:And I thought it was so unique.
Speaker B:And now, after all these years, it's like there is a cost for keeping secrets.
Speaker B:The truth lives in our guts and.
Speaker B:And it rises up, and if we can't speak it, it gets stuck here.
Speaker B:And I. I have a scar to prove it.
Speaker B:I've had two big surgeries in my youth, and one was my tonsils coming out.
Speaker B:They were chronically inflamed and infected because that's where the truth got stuck.
Speaker B:And then they took them out.
Speaker B:My 20s, I started singing in public a couple minutes later.
Speaker B:And then I stopped singing for a boyfriend.
Speaker B:I don't even know who that.
Speaker B:Who made that decision.
Speaker B:And then it got stuck again.
Speaker B:And I grew a nodule on my thyroid, not cancerous.
Speaker B:And they cut my throat and they took out half my thyroid.
Speaker B:The other half is chugging along.
Speaker B:I have no medication.
Speaker B:And so for me, the connection between really speaking my truth, I did.
Speaker A:Call.
Speaker B:Everybody in and say, I'm not doing this anymore.
Speaker B:And in my mid-20s and found some teachers who helped me really open up all my sound, not just the socially sanctioned kind.
Speaker B:And that's the journey I've been on ever since.
Speaker B:And so for me, the voice has been my primary mechanism for healing.
Speaker B:And not just healing you.
Speaker B:And with driving.
Speaker A:Oh, I bet.
Speaker A:I mean, I. I think back to just my voice, and sometimes I still feel like I'm not as apt to use my voice like I should because it's dangerous.
Speaker A:A lot of, you know, a lot of our listeners grew up where it wasn't safe to speak up at all.
Speaker A:Right, so how does that actually.
Speaker A:Does that actually.
Speaker A:Well, you said it.
Speaker A:Your voice is caught in your throat.
Speaker A:And I picture.
Speaker A:I picture a lot of people that have, like, the tonsilitis.
Speaker A:And do you think that physically manifested there and that's why you had the chronic swelling and inflammation in your throat?
Speaker B:That's my story.
Speaker B:As my friend Peter says.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's true, but it's useful to consider, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker B:I do think that the, you know, and I, until, you know, in the last couple of years, I had some eye surgery and I broke my wrist and I had that fixed.
Speaker B:But up until that point, that was the only surgery I had in my life.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:So like many of us, the gifts and the wounds are all snuggled up close together.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And I have to say, I've worked with people who've had horrible trauma.
Speaker B:I mean, just awful.
Speaker B:And there is something particularly lovely about hearing a voice that has been confined, run free.
Speaker B:The people who have just had it the whole time, it's still nice, but it doesn't really cost them the same.
Speaker B:And I can still hear the sound of this one woman.
Speaker B:I don't even know what happened to her.
Speaker B:I didn't need to know, but she had gone mute as a child from what was happening to her, literally.
Speaker B:And so she, like, wisely had a job at the post office in the back room, so she didn't have to talk, but she was determined to reinhabit her body.
Speaker B:And her voice was super brave.
Speaker B:And there was this one day we worked in person at that time, and she threw back her head and this big sound came out, and I thought it would never end.
Speaker B:It just went on and on and on, and it was like, oh.
Speaker B:And then she got done and her eyes were just, like, huge, and I burst into tears, and she burst into tears, and it was one of the most beautiful sounds I've ever heard.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:That's going to make me cry.
Speaker A:No, it's going to make me cry.
Speaker A:Sitting here right now.
Speaker A:I can't even imagine just to imagine the trauma that is so bad that it literally shuts.
Speaker A:Cuts your voice off.
Speaker A:I mean, literally will not.
Speaker A:I mean, talk a little bit more about that.
Speaker A:Like, what do you think goes on in the body that she just completely became a mute?
Speaker B:Well, I've seen this a lot.
Speaker B:I mean, the classic example is, I believe, Maya Angelou, who was abused and then her abuser was killed, and she thought she was responsible, and she didn't talk for a long, long time as a young girl.
Speaker B:And so I think it's a very common strategy for survival.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like you said, it's not safe to make a noise, so shut up.
Speaker B:And what I love about the voice is that it's so faithful.
Speaker B:It waits.
Speaker B:And considering Maya Angelou's voice in the world, she's one of my great heroes as a.
Speaker B:As a person, you know, elegant.
Speaker B:And I'm also very tall as she.
Speaker B:I'm six two.
Speaker B:And when I first I got to see her in person many years ago, and she came walking out, it was like, oh, I didn't even know that was possible to like, have that kind of gorgeousness and gravitas and warmth and dignity.
Speaker B:And so there's a way that I feel like I love my voice more because I didn't have it.
Speaker B:I cherish it.
Speaker B:And that's just human.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of people who face a health crisis and then they get another go at life.
Speaker B:You know, it's that thing that you think is it becomes more precious when it's been sidelined and then you get it back.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I remember when my mother in law had her thyroid out and they told her she couldn't talk for like six weeks or whatever it was, and we were like.
Speaker A:And she had to like literally muffle herself and couldn't talk.
Speaker A:And I remember it was kind of like the joke in the family.
Speaker A:Like, my father in law was like, wow, this is amazing.
Speaker A:And I was like, no, I can't even imagine.
Speaker A:But that's how some people feel all the time.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I. I deal with so many people who go to say something and it's like you see it catch and they're like, oh, can't.
Speaker A:And I just, you know, that just stores there.
Speaker A:Like you said it could store tonsillitis, it could store in your thyroid, anything that is in that throat chakra area.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:So what do you think?
Speaker A:Talk about what you think happens in a person's body when all of a sudden they start speaking up, like, does it change their voice?
Speaker A:Can you change their voice?
Speaker A:Or can you change your own voice?
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker A:A lot of questions.
Speaker B:Okay, where do I start?
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker B:Well, let me start with how I think about voice.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Most people talk about voice as being like your speaking voice or your singing voice.
Speaker B:I start with sound because that's what set me free.
Speaker B:I was always trying to find the right words or sing pretty in the choir or be seen but not heard.
Speaker B:Quiet was very valued in my.
Speaker B:In my family.
Speaker B:I realize now that my father, he was a war veteran and a damaged guy, bless his heart.
Speaker B:We're good now.
Speaker B:He's dead.
Speaker B:And we had a good.
Speaker B:He had the hospice makeover.
Speaker B:That's what I call it.
Speaker B:Really sweet.
Speaker B:At the end of his life.
Speaker B:And did a lot of.
Speaker B:He did a lot of healing in the last couple months, but.
Speaker B:But he's very sound sensitive.
Speaker B:And I realize it runs in the family.
Speaker B:I have a little of that, but my brother and my nephew, you know, you, like, come in the room and they, like, jump out of their skin, you know, And I realize that my father had that, and so he was very irritable.
Speaker B:So to have my sounds all invited and set free by these teachers that came from the south of France.
Speaker B:They came to Minneapolis from the Roy Hart center, and they work with the extended range of the voice.
Speaker B:And it blew my mind.
Speaker B:No one had ever asked for all the sound I had, and I had a lot.
Speaker B:So it was, like really low, really high, screamy, you know, very primal, shadowy, not okay sounds.
Speaker B:And I loved it.
Speaker B:And with each sound, a part of me came back again, which was.
Speaker B:It was a great way to reclaim all these, like, aspects of myself that had gotten sort of sidelined.
Speaker B:So I took that work and combined it with the chakra system from yoga, which I was doing a bunch of at the time.
Speaker B:Jungian psychology around archetypes and the collective unconscious and the shadow and leadership development.
Speaker B:I was a consultant for a number of years with organizations around building leadership and teams and things like that.
Speaker B:And I just kind of mushed it all together and made this five elements framework which kind of opens the voice into five distinct sounds using the elements of earth, fire, water, metal, and air.
Speaker A:Wait, what's the metal?
Speaker A:Do the metal again.
Speaker B:Metal.
Speaker A:Okay, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and I'm exaggerating these, right?
Speaker B:And each correlates with the part of the body, and each correlates with certain human qualities.
Speaker B:Like, you know, the earth is great for gravitas and projecting authority.
Speaker B:And fire is great for passion and taking up space.
Speaker B:And water is wonderful for the heart.
Speaker B:You know, saying your song, you understand?
Speaker B:Metal is great for getting loud without any strain cutting through.
Speaker B:And air is great for waking up the imagination.
Speaker B:Storytelling.
Speaker B:I have an idea, Connecting to spirit.
Speaker B:So I cooked this up, and that's how I work with people's voices.
Speaker B:I start with Sound and just see if we can welcome all of these qualities home.
Speaker B:Because you can't change your voice without your life coming along.
Speaker B:You can't get more grounded in your Earth voice without getting more ground grounded in your body and your life.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I'm just flashing back and I'm just thinking about.
Speaker A:I always was so in envy and so in awe of people that could get that high pitched scream like in a horror movie because I couldn't do it.
Speaker A:And I can remember the times in my life when I was the most scared.
Speaker A:And even after, like, even when it wasn't an abuse situation, even when it was at a horror film or and everybody else got this like this high pitched scream and all I could do was like, I couldn't, like I couldn't produce that sound.
Speaker A:And I remember always thinking and I still can't.
Speaker A:Like people like, wow, when you scream, like, you don't really scream.
Speaker A:You'd be horrible in a horror movie.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I can't get that.
Speaker A:But I know, I think I'm.
Speaker A:Now that I'm thinking back about it, it's probably because there were times where I needed that and I couldn't muster it up.
Speaker A:Like, could not.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I didn't have that, that high part of my voice either.
Speaker B:I mean, I come from tall, low voice people.
Speaker B:I mean, this is, this is kind of how I'm wired biologically.
Speaker B:And that's a part of it.
Speaker B:Physiology is a piece of it.
Speaker B:But it's a tiny slice.
Speaker B:But I had a hard, hard stop right around here.
Speaker B:And what was beyond that was silent.
Speaker A:I couldn't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Sound.
Speaker B:And in my first weekend with these teachers, I went almost to the top of the piano.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:And it looks like my story about myself just fell apart.
Speaker B:You know, it's like I'm wrong about me.
Speaker B:How else am I wrong about me?
Speaker B:And that question has been carrying me along.
Speaker B:But there was a ton of stuff sitting on that high, soft voice a lot of us can't find.
Speaker B:You know, it's not the high scream.
Speaker B:Although I did get to a high scream when I was up here.
Speaker B:Sounded like a bird.
Speaker B:But a lot of us don't want to go into that light, soft voice because that's how we sound when we're, when we're little.
Speaker B:Everybody I know got the hell out of childhood as quickly as possible.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I feel like that's where we all need to go back.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:That's what softens you when you can.
Speaker A:You Know, I noticed even when I'm just doing, like, a solo episode of a podcast, and when I get to that.
Speaker A:That moment, it's.
Speaker A:You feel it.
Speaker A:You feel it when your voice shifts and you.
Speaker A:All of a sudden, it's like, wow.
Speaker A:It's that.
Speaker A:That pause and that quiet, and you.
Speaker A:You feel the whole shift, right?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:And it doesn't have any muscle.
Speaker B:This voice is light and sweet, and this was like, usually the voice that's the hardest or that you like the least has the greatest gifts for you because it represents part of you that's been exiled or shut down somehow.
Speaker B:It's still waiting.
Speaker B:That's the beauty of it, the generosity of it.
Speaker B:But, boy, did I cry a lot of tears to welcome this.
Speaker B:I didn't think this was my birthright, being who I am.
Speaker B:And, you know, I'll never be like, hello, girl, you know, but, oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:Now, I love this part of my voice, and I sing with it a lot.
Speaker B:It has really.
Speaker B:It can be sensual, it can be sweet, it can be dreamy, it can be innocent, vulnerable.
Speaker A:And that's the air part of your voice.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:So you take people when you first see if they can just kind of embrace each one of these voices, right?
Speaker B:Using characters.
Speaker B:Because your ego and mine has us on a really short leash, right.
Speaker B:Just trying to protect us.
Speaker B:You know, it's like, this is who we are and this is who we're not.
Speaker B:And for me, you know, mine was like, I'm a tall, strong Midwesterner, no nonsense, German, Scots, Irish, parents.
Speaker B:You know, it's like teachers, you know, a lot of control and a deep voice.
Speaker B:And so there was whole aspects of me that I just felt like, oh, that's just not me.
Speaker B:Well, guess what?
Speaker B:That story is too small for all of us.
Speaker B:And so using an archetype or a character, you might not be able to make a sound in quotes, but the character might like, I couldn't make sound way up there, but that bird that was filling me up, and I could feel it.
Speaker B:I could feel this fierce, ah, you know, rap, right?
Speaker B:And, you know, you might not be able to make sound down here, but the big, you know, stupid cave person can.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Or big pooh bear, Teddy bear, whatever it is.
Speaker A:Yeah, whatever you have to picture.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we use the characters to kind of sneak by the ego, but also it'll help you remember it later because the ego kind of has antibodies.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, anything that's not us gets killed.
Speaker B:And so it helps you sort of find Your way back to that part of your voice and thus that part of you.
Speaker B:Your personality.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Can you talk a little bit?
Speaker A:And I know this is.
Speaker A:Like I said, I do this voice scan, and it analyzes the top three notes and then a suppressed emotion.
Speaker A:So it's like your top three notes and then your lowest note.
Speaker A:And the way it was described to me was the top three notes are kind of usually things you're overcompensating for.
Speaker A:What does that hit with you at all?
Speaker A:Does that mean anything to you, or.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't understand the system you're working.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:But I do know that how we do anything is pretty much how we do everything.
Speaker A:Everything.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:So the people who just don't kind of invest a lot of energy, you know, that kind of lay back that is usually evident in how they use their voice, how they speak, how they move, and.
Speaker B:And then there are those of us that try too hard.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm going to be working with trying too hard till I'm dead.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:Because, you know, we just.
Speaker B:I have a lot of energy, and sometimes I don't need that much.
Speaker B:And for me, the voice.
Speaker B:And I am a singer.
Speaker B:I write songs.
Speaker B:That is one of the constant things when I'm getting ready for a concert here in a couple weeks in my little town, and as I'm practicing, I'm like, you know, less is, you don't need all that.
Speaker B:You don't.
Speaker B:You're wasting it.
Speaker B:You're pushing.
Speaker B:And so I don't understand the system.
Speaker B:It's fascinating to me.
Speaker B:I've never heard of it.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:It's basically taking all of the frequencies.
Speaker A:So it's not just looking at your voice.
Speaker A:It's the same basic.
Speaker A:Basic technology is a lie detector test.
Speaker B:Oh, wow, cool.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But it.
Speaker A:It's gone a lot farther than that.
Speaker A:And it takes 171,000 different frequencies.
Speaker A:So it goes through your chakras and your meridians and your left knee because it knows that every single cell in your body has a certain frequency, and it kind of analyzes those for imbalances.
Speaker A:So it does make sense in that if you're taking a lie detector test and you know it's all subconscious.
Speaker A:I mean, you can't control it where you work more on the conscious level of being able to put yourself in that pattern.
Speaker A:So you're like one step above where this thing is.
Speaker A:Literally, you can't do anything to manipulate it.
Speaker A:It just is what it is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's A diagnostic.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's not.
Speaker A:You know, we don't say it's diagnostic, but we.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:It's analyzing frequency.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But I just wondered.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Because I know.
Speaker A:I mean, I guess if I think through it logically, if somebody asked me, how you doing today, Tammy?
Speaker A:And I'm really sad.
Speaker A:My voice is going to be what I think I should be, so I'm going to be probably putting out those frequencies of more happy than I really am to.
Speaker A:To fake the system, I guess.
Speaker B:Well, and we're always doing that, Tammy.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:And our voices are telling so much information about us, you know, it's like our physical state, you know?
Speaker B:You know, when I'm tired, I just don't have a lot of juice, you know, so the voice gets kind of rough region, accents, class education, trauma, mood, all of that.
Speaker B:I was a caregiver for my sweet mom for about 15 years before she.
Speaker B:She passed.
Speaker B:And I could tell by the low of hello if it was a good day or a bad day.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's true for all of us with people we know really well.
Speaker B:And so we think we're so sneaky, but we're really.
Speaker B:We're leaking all kinds of information about us to.
Speaker B:You know, when I was researching.
Speaker B:I've written two books now, and when I was researching the first one, I was reading a bunch of research about all the things people can tell by hearing your voice.
Speaker B:And like the.
Speaker B:There was the Exxon Valdez oil, horrible oil spill back in the day, and they analyzed the captain's voice and could tell he'd been drinking.
Speaker B:Yeah, Right.
Speaker B:And doctors got sued more often if they talked badly to their patients.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Who had.
Speaker B:And they didn't even look at the words.
Speaker B:They just looked at the tone.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And I think that tone is really where I live in looking at the voice.
Speaker B:Because we spend a lot of time thinking about our words, but if our tone and our words are at odds, people are going to believe the tone.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, how many times do you hear the expression, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And we've all given and received the apology.
Speaker B:That sounds like, I'm sorry.
Speaker A:Yep, yep.
Speaker B:Maybe not.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker B:That's an extreme.
Speaker B:But we're.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker B:Having our words.
Speaker B:You know, I'm really excited to tell you about this.
Speaker B:It's like, no, you're not.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You might be, but we don't know it.
Speaker A:No, you know, that's so true.
Speaker A:I Mean, you can.
Speaker A:And that's why I think texting is so dangerous sometimes, because you can't read people's tone in a text, in written word.
Speaker A:So it's like, there's so many misinterpretations, and it's like, no, I didn't mean it like that.
Speaker A:Well, that's what the word said.
Speaker A:But if you had heard me say it, it would have been totally different.
Speaker A:Let me.
Speaker A:When you.
Speaker A:You said you used a lot of this for healing.
Speaker A:When people start to access their voice and haven't really been able to do that, I'm assuming this can bring up all kinds of emotions they were not expecting, correct?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Lots of tears.
Speaker B:And here's the thing, as one of my teachers says, it's not therapy, but it's therapy therapeutic.
Speaker B:And so I don't.
Speaker B:I'm not a therapist.
Speaker B:I'm not trained in that.
Speaker B:I don't want to be.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:Sometimes therapists will send people to me to work with the voice, sort of in.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In conjunction with the work they're doing, you know, right.
Speaker B:Patient.
Speaker B:But I just listen, you know, and.
Speaker B:And I think sometimes, I don't know.
Speaker B:I've done a lot of therapy.
Speaker B:I'm really grateful for.
Speaker B:For its, you know, impact on my life.
Speaker B:And now I'm in my 60s, and I don't think there's a lot of new material.
Speaker B:You know, I know the stories.
Speaker B:I know the stories, and I'm a little bored with my own stories.
Speaker B:I'm more interested in how alive can I be before I'm dead?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So I will hear them.
Speaker B:I will bear witness, but I don't need to know all the details.
Speaker B:And, you know, mostly it's just whatever the voice has to say.
Speaker B:Let's let it say it, and then have the giggles or the tears or the shivers or whatever it is come through.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I'm gonna.
Speaker A:I'm gonna have you repeat the five elements just because I want people to kind of sit here that are listening.
Speaker A:Now.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We went by them so quickly, and I want you to repeat them again so that people, if you're out there listening, kind of think about where you find yourself on a regular basis, kind of which element you would put yourself in, because then I'm going to ask you a question about it, if you don't mind going through them again.
Speaker B:Not at all.
Speaker B:Not at all.
Speaker B:I love this stuff, and I've been doing it for a long time, and I'm easily bored, so it's good stuff.
Speaker B:And I'm going to Demonstrate them this time by laughing.
Speaker A:Okay, perfect.
Speaker B:The earth is sourced in your feet, legs, hips, butt parts.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it sounds in a laugh.
Speaker B:It sounds in an exaggerated version.
Speaker B:I always start with the exaggerated version because a little change is sometimes harder than a big one.
Speaker B:So the earth voice laughing goes like.
Speaker B:Can be Santa.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:And if I just use that in my regular speaking voice, this is my Earth voice, and it's good for projecting authority, getting grounded and reconnecting to your gut instinct or your animal intelligence.
Speaker B:It takes us deep into that other brain we have in our guts.
Speaker B:So that's Earth.
Speaker B:Next we have fire, which is sourced in the belly and the solar plexus.
Speaker B:You've heard that expression, fire in the belly.
Speaker B:That's what this is all about.
Speaker B:And so to laugh like this, I think we're going to be sort of like an obnoxious comic.
Speaker B:Remember Phyllis Diller?
Speaker B:Anyway, there's the fire.
Speaker B:And if I just bring fire into my speaking voice, this is it.
Speaker B:And it sounds familiar because this is mostly where I talk, especially in an interview or teaching or something like that, or speaking.
Speaker B:Fire is good for expressing passion, taking up space, being seen and heard, and for waking up your physical vitality.
Speaker B:It's the kya in martial arts.
Speaker B:It's that kind of, whoa, I'm awake.
Speaker B:I'm alive.
Speaker B:Next is water, which is sourced in your heart and throat areas, and to isolate and exaggerate that sound with a laugh.
Speaker B:We're going to be Julia Child or British lady.
Speaker B:And if I bring that voice down into how I might normally talk, this is my water voice.
Speaker B:And you can hear it's more flowing, a little higher, softer, warmer.
Speaker B:And it's good for anything your heart has to say, like, I'm sorry, that sounds hard.
Speaker B:I'm with you.
Speaker B:In fact, I've noticed when people hear hard news, very often, they cover their heart and they make the sound.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:Oh, no, that's.
Speaker B:There's your water.
Speaker B:It's also the sound of crying.
Speaker B:If we make sound with when we cry, and most of us got trained out of that, like, really, really quick.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And this is the sound of crying.
Speaker B:And it's also the sound of comfort.
Speaker B:So anything your heart has to say, welcome, affirmation, empathy, all that.
Speaker B:Okay, two to go.
Speaker B:Metal is sourced in the mask, in the face.
Speaker B:And to isolate and exaggerate that, we're going to be witches.
Speaker B:That's good to me.
Speaker B:Bad.
Speaker B:I'll fix you, my pretty and your little dog too.
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker B:So it's very, very bright and pointy.
Speaker B:That's it's like sharp, like metal.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And so if I take the witch and I bring it more into how I would normally talk.
Speaker B:This is my metal voice.
Speaker B:So I used to use this with my mother when she would lose a hearing aid in a loud, crowded place.
Speaker B:I lead a lot of groups in singing, and if we're outside, I can do this.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of sports coaches have this, and a lot of singers from the Appalachians have this.
Speaker B:I am a poor wayfaring stranger.
Speaker B:So it's very nasal.
Speaker B:So mostly it's just good for getting loud.
Speaker B:And then finally we have air, which is sourced in the crown of the head and above.
Speaker B:And to isolate and exaggerate that sound, we're gonna laugh like babies.
Speaker B:A lot of us talk to our pets and babies like this.
Speaker B:Who's a good boy?
Speaker B:Who's a good girl?
Speaker B:Oh, you know, so it's that whole exaggerated.
Speaker B:And if I just bring it into how I would normally talk.
Speaker B:This is my air voice, and it's good for storytelling.
Speaker B:Let me tell you a story about that or about, you know, waking up the imagination about a new idea.
Speaker B:I have an idea.
Speaker B:And it also reconnects us to spirit like the earth, connects us to the ground.
Speaker B:This connects us to the angelic, the dream, the all, the infinite.
Speaker B:Ah, all that.
Speaker B:So that's the five elements.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:And if you're out there listening, see where you think you might fit yourself into or at different times, because depending on your mood and depending on the conversation, you're going to be in one of those more element type voices.
Speaker A:But obviously you probably have.
Speaker A:I guess that's where I was going with this is when you grew up in that kind of dysfunction and chaos and abuse and neglect, is there one of those elements that you see more people kind of gravitate to?
Speaker B:Oh, so much depends on what helped them survive, really.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:People can go different places, but I do know it just narrows the choices hugely.
Speaker B:You just try to slot yourself into the smallest survivable place.
Speaker B:However, your voice can also be a kind of a tell about your gifts.
Speaker B:So the person who.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes a lot of us learn to fly under the radar by just getting kind of dead.
Speaker B:But sometimes the people, before we get busy, like adding to that or changing it, I can often ask the question, are you the person in the room who stays calm when everyone else is going and they're like most of the time?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And the people who are kind of up here and talking, you know, sometimes I think of it as an airhead feeling it.
Speaker B:I say, I have a little judgment still.
Speaker B:You know, I'll ask that person, so are you the person who sees the future before everyone else?
Speaker B:And I asked this young woman who was in a corporate job who kept getting, you know, interrupted by men, which happens all the time, no matter what your voice is.
Speaker B:Let's just name that.
Speaker B:But I said, you know, ask that question about seeing the future.
Speaker B:And she's like, well, yeah, my boss says that all the time because she's out here in the.
Speaker A:But she's dreamy.
Speaker A:She's in that spirit.
Speaker A:She's in that spiritual.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And so I said, don't lose what you've got.
Speaker B:You know, you get to keep all of it.
Speaker B:And the difference is that you can maybe if you keep playing with these five.
Speaker B:And there's a TED Talk that goes through all five again, that's in the show notes.
Speaker B:But if you just get used to, like, being able to shift, you know, where.
Speaker B:Where you need to go and welcome all those sounds home as part of you as a human being, then you might have the secret decoder ring for your voice.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Generally, you're right.
Speaker B:We shift depending on mood and situation and who we're talking to.
Speaker B:Mostly it's unconscious.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So a lot of times we have one or two that are dominant, you know, or a mix.
Speaker B:It's like, very rarely are we kind of pure in any of them.
Speaker B:But to be able to see, it's not working.
Speaker B:You know, if you see that person, like, lean back and cross their arms and kind of look at you funny.
Speaker B:Most of the time, we persist in what's not working.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker B:If fire is a little too much and they're kind of backing off, you might just shift into water.
Speaker B:And what we're looking for is that connection.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, we got.
Speaker B:We got a little sparkle in the eyes.
Speaker B:Now something can happen between us.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Because, I mean, going back to your voice is still.
Speaker A:It's energy.
Speaker A:And you're going to attract that energy.
Speaker A:So you can.
Speaker A:I mean, tone is.
Speaker A:It's unbelievable.
Speaker A:Then people take for granted, and they go, well, my.
Speaker A:I mean, and I love my husband to death, but he's the worst.
Speaker A:He'll be like, but I didn't say it like that.
Speaker A:But that's how we perceived it, and our perception is our reality.
Speaker A:So maybe you should try changing your tone when you talk to people.
Speaker A:If they're thinking you're condescending and because it's more of that metal kind of like.
Speaker A:Like you feel like You're.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You feel like you're being bossed, even though it's just a regular conversation.
Speaker A:So maybe like.
Speaker A:I mean, that's.
Speaker A:Oh, my God, I must have heard the expression 7 million times in my life.
Speaker A:Tone it down.
Speaker A:Tone it down.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:I mean, you hear that and it makes sense, though.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:People feel that energy and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The sum is flowing and soft and some is pretty metallic and sharp and rough and unbendable.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And gender plays a huge role because as women, we're just supposed to be, like, really nice and warm and, you know, endless care.
Speaker B:And it's like, that's part of us.
Speaker B:But there's also, you know, a lot of.
Speaker B:I worked with women who are getting ready to give birth and we get them in a squat and, you know, help them open the lower part of their body.
Speaker B:And for men, the dominant culture is to be a good man is to be dead.
Speaker B:You can't move, you can't feel, you can't wear color.
Speaker B:You can't be joyful or playful or childlike.
Speaker B:So I think, you know, and women, if you.
Speaker B:You either get to be a bit.
Speaker B:Or a wimp.
Speaker B:Pick.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Or a.
Speaker B:A good girl or a pick.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's no.
Speaker A:There's no middle ground.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And so it.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker B:The whole system doesn't work well for any of us, and we're all just trying to be human beings and in the middle of it all.
Speaker B:But I feel like sometimes we take it personally.
Speaker B:Like somehow it's just us, and it's like.
Speaker B:No, actually, it's designed this way, so.
Speaker B:So we feel horrible about ourselves, so we'll buy more stuff and, you know, get.
Speaker B:Put product on our face or get, you know, surgery or whatever it is, and.
Speaker B:And we're fine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We're gorgeous.
Speaker B:We're beautifully flawed, human, messy, glorious people.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:I mean, I had.
Speaker A:I literally wrote down like, 20 questions for you, but I'm not going to obviously have time to get into all of.
Speaker A:But when you grow up, and I'm going.
Speaker A:I keep going back to the people that grew up in that severe dysfunction because they were the ones that were not allowed to use their voice or were scared to use their voice.
Speaker A:And I know you said a lot of times a lot of emotions come up.
Speaker A:I mean, you're starting to pull stuff up and you're starting to bring that unconscious to the conscious and thinking about those things.
Speaker A:When you.
Speaker A:Let's say you were doing the work and you're doing the inner child work.
Speaker A:Or whatever you're doing, and you really start maybe getting some self worth.
Speaker A:Like you start truly believing that you might actually be worthy to do something bigger and better.
Speaker A:What might be an example of your voice shift?
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's so many possibilities about how that would shift depending on how you were hurt, how you compensated, what was rewarded, what was punished.
Speaker B:But I'd say the biggest thing I notice is a more choice and flexibility.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:You know that there's a bigger menu to choose from and just more vitality in the voice and the body and the face.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:You know, the dead face was one of the things.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm also.
Speaker B:It was a compensation for trying to fly under the radar, but also it was.
Speaker B:I'm in.
Speaker B:I'm right at the intersection of introvert and extrovert.
Speaker B:That means I'm a lot of both.
Speaker B:And I have a super rich inner world.
Speaker B:And one of my first voice teachers who just.
Speaker B:I mostly cried when I went to go work with her.
Speaker B:I just start to sing.
Speaker B:It was like.
Speaker B:And I grew up singing.
Speaker B:I grew up singing in great choirs in school and church, and I was really lucky in that way.
Speaker B:But singing by myself was just.
Speaker B:Just terrifying.
Speaker B:It's amazing that I do it now and love it and I have no fear and make mistakes and survive.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And if you're out there listening, singing is so incredibly therapeutic and healing.
Speaker A:And it doesn't matter if you can carry a tune.
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:None of that matters.
Speaker A:Just ding.
Speaker A:I mean, you're stimulating your vagus nerve, which is all of the happy nerves through your whole, like, going through your whole body.
Speaker A:You're just vibrating your whole body and bringing that vibrational frequency up.
Speaker A:I'm horrible.
Speaker A:I remember I tell this story all the time, but when my daughter was like three years old or four years old, we were in church and I went to Catholics, you know, Catholic church.
Speaker A:And of course we're singing.
Speaker A:And my daughter looked over at me and she said, shh, Mommy.
Speaker A:And I said, what?
Speaker A:She goes, don't sing.
Speaker A:And I said, why?
Speaker A:I was like, I love to sing.
Speaker A:And she said, because if Jesus covers his ears so he can't hear you sing, he's not going to hear all these people's prayers.
Speaker A:And I'm like, girl, but out of.
Speaker B:The mouths of babes, I guess, right?
Speaker A:And I mean it, like.
Speaker A:But I was like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:And for a long time, I didn't sing around her.
Speaker A:I didn't sing around because I was like, man.
Speaker A:But now I'm like, you know what?
Speaker A:We get in the car and we belt it out, and I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm sure three lanes down, they're like, what is that noise?
Speaker A:But it's joy.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's self expression.
Speaker A:And that is what people miss.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They just miss that.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I tell people, I don't care how bad you are.
Speaker A:I sing at work all the time and they always.
Speaker A:People always look at me and they're like, where do you even come up with the words?
Speaker A:I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker A:I just make them up as I go along.
Speaker A:But it's just.
Speaker A:It's like humming, you know, Humming is so good for you too.
Speaker A:But practical tips now, if someone is listening here and they're out here right now, and they have been quiet all of their life because they just didn't feel like they had a voice, could have a voice.
Speaker A:It was stifled, it was beret, whatever it is.
Speaker A:What is like one or two small tips that they can start right now to learn to kind of reconnect with their voice.
Speaker B:Oh, well, one of the things I like to suggest is a lot of us get disconnected from the deep part of our body.
Speaker B:So to voice your yawn dawns.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm gonna do it now.
Speaker B:It's infectious because our bodies love it.
Speaker B:And it also kind of opens the whole gate between the.
Speaker B:The truth telling body and the manager here.
Speaker B:It wakes up the earth voice.
Speaker B:So I love the.
Speaker B:And helps us open our mouths, which again, all that, all that not speaking has to, you know, lives in the tension here.
Speaker B:So voicing your yawns is a great one.
Speaker B:And I think you alluded to it just now is to make an irresistible playlist and have it in your life.
Speaker B:You know, chop onions to it, clean your house to it, drive your commute.
Speaker B:And if it even is like a variety pack, you know, so you have like something floaty like enyard those, like dreamy Irish people or, you know, Johnny Cash or Bette Midler or Barbara Streisand or, you know, and some of these are athletes that they're hard to.
Speaker B:It's hard to sing along with Barbra Streisand because she's right.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:But to make a variety pack that will entice you to go to different places in your voice that you love and just sing more.
Speaker B:Because I always.
Speaker B:I mean, I start people with that wild sound that we played with, with the five elements.
Speaker B:But one step Closer to everyday speech is singing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So just to get used to taking up more space with your voice in your body, and sometimes it's easier to sort of ride along with someone else, another singer, another person.
Speaker B:So those are a couple tips.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're very, very helpful because.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the biggest thing, I think, is just to notice.
Speaker B:Start by noticing, like, just pay attention.
Speaker B:Just like.
Speaker B:Like, I'm gonna see my friend Cher later.
Speaker B:And she.
Speaker B:She is the only person in my life that.
Speaker B:We laugh like witches when we're together.
Speaker B:We have a.
Speaker B:There's a particular sound.
Speaker B:We find each other hilarious.
Speaker B:And we will be at an Indian restaurant in Minneapolis in a couple hours, and you will hear.
Speaker B:I don't laugh like that with anybody else.
Speaker B:So, like, how do you talk to your pets or that person that you're not sure you trust or.
Speaker B:Or when you're sad, you know, not just your own moods, but also, how does your voice shift?
Speaker B:That's a big, big piece.
Speaker B:So those are the three things.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:I absolutely love it.
Speaker A:If you're out there listening, guys, take note of that, because it's just so much joy into.
Speaker A:I mean, I just did a podcast, a little flip this morning about just laughter in general, and that's what made me.
Speaker A:Just made me think of that, because it's true.
Speaker A:And you can't be.
Speaker A:Just like, you can't be singing and joyful.
Speaker A:That brings out the joyfulness in you.
Speaker A:It's very hard to be singing and be anxious or be singing and be depressed and be.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's kind of like.
Speaker A:It's very hard to be happy and sad at the same time.
Speaker A:So if you do those things that are good for dropping your cortisol and raising your dopamine, I mean, that's what it's about.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Oh, this has been a great conversation.
Speaker A:If you had to give the listeners one big picture piece of advice about your voice and what you can do with it or anything, what would be your biggest message?
Speaker B:Well, here's the thing, and I will send you this to put in the show notes.
Speaker B:I made a song out of a quote by the great Sufi mystic Hafiz, and it was in my office for many years.
Speaker B:And my nephew, who I love like mad, was going through a really hard, hard time in another state far away.
Speaker B:And so I took that quote and I made it into a little song.
Speaker B:And I don't know if I have.
Speaker B:You know, I don't think our settings are right for me to sing it and have it.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:Why go Ahead.
Speaker B:Okay, so it goes like this.
Speaker B:I wish that I could show you.
Speaker B:I wish that I could show you.
Speaker B:Whenever you are lonely, you're walking in the dark.
Speaker B:I wish that I could show you.
Speaker B:I wish that I could show you the astonishing, the light of your being.
Speaker A:Oh, that's sweet.
Speaker B:See, it's so obvious to so many of us how astonishing the light is in each person.
Speaker B:And sometimes we're the last to know, which is why we.
Speaker B:Why we need each other.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:I absolutely love that as our lights, so many of ours, our lights were blown out, but there's always that little flicker inside, and you just got to reach in there and I don't know what you have to do.
Speaker A:Like all of these things.
Speaker A:That's why this podcast exists, to get that light burning again.
Speaker A:It's in there.
Speaker A:It's in all of us.
Speaker A:And we are all beautiful.
Speaker A:Like you said before, beautiful and perfect just the way you are right here, right now.
Speaker A:So go out and sing and do whatever you have to do.
Speaker A:Barbara, this has been absolutely amazing.
Speaker A:If all of everything you gave me, all the links, everything will be in the show notes, right?
Speaker A:But what is the best place if people want to work with you?
Speaker A:How does, how do they get hold of you?
Speaker B:The easiest way is to just reach out through my website, Barbara McAfee.com.
Speaker B:There's a ton of, I mean, I have individual coursework, small group classes.
Speaker B:I'm making a self directed class around the five elements that'll be up in a couple months.
Speaker B:There's also a lot of really fun music videos there, two TED Talks.
Speaker B:There's just a wealth of things and I would really welcome people's stories, questions, comments, anything like that.
Speaker B:I'm always happy to hear from people.
Speaker B:So that's an easy way to get me, Get a hold of me.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker A:So just go to her website, Barbara McAfee, and like I said, all of those links will be in the show notes because you have such a amazing information.
Speaker A:I know you do.
Speaker A:I've already checked out some of it.
Speaker A:But go visit her.
Speaker A:And thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker B:That's my great joy.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Damien, good, good on you for all the great work you're doing.
Speaker A:Yes, thank you very much.
Speaker A:And for everybody else out there, you list you heard it.
Speaker A:Go get in nature, hug a tree, sing to the, to the clouds, whatever you need to do, just go out and use your voice.
Speaker A:God gave you a voice for a reason.
Speaker A:It's to use it.
Speaker A:It's not to be stifled.
Speaker A:It's to protect and love and do the best things you can do with it.
Speaker A:So enjoy it and embrace it.
Speaker A:So thank you, and you all have a blessed day.
Speaker A:Oh.
